Listen to the special episode for National Family Business Day, featuring Catherine Sayer and Lea Boyce from Family Business Association.
View the transcript here:
Tony McManus
Feel like a real radio presenter, we've got studio guests. We very rarely have studio guests on the overnight program but thrilled to say, Catherine Sayer is the top person, CEO of Family Business Association. Lea Boyce, we'll introduce Lea in just a moment. Family Business Association is a national organisation committed to Australia's future through dynamic, successful family business community and there are many from which to choose.
Passionate about raising profile, family business sector, so important. ‘Tis to, look who it is, Catherine Sayer.
Hello and welcome to Australia Overnight.
Catherine Sayer
Thank you very much, Tony. Thanks for having me.
Tony McManus
I should say that for the last 12 months you've been in that chair, you've been really very helpful in setting up a lot of people and giving us the opportunity to speak to it and talk about the value that great family businesses bring to the Australian economy.
Catherine Sayer
They absolutely do, and lots of stories have been unearthed where people might not necessarily have known they were a family business and hear all these amazing stories about family businesses doing lots of really good things.
Tony McManus
I guess that, in a sense, that's part of your challenge, isn't it? Because the market changes, it changes on a regular basis, changes in our time on the planet, but it remains so important and the fact I think people will choose to actually support a family business, if they get to know that it's a family business.
Catherine Sayer
Well, very interesting you say that. We were doing a bit of research the other day and there's an Edelman Trust Barometer, which is a global barometer, and we found that family businesses are not only trusted by consumers but they're preferred. 70% of consumers trust family-owned businesses over non-family businesses and 66% say they're willing to pay more for their products and services.
Tony McManus
Which is encouraging. Would you like to introduce Lea officially so we know, we'll talk to Lea in just a moment, but the role that Lea plays.
Catherine Sayer
I would love to introduce Lea. Lea is the Deputy Chair of FBA, Family Business Association, and also runs a number of different businesses, different types of businesses in family office, but also in family businesses around Victoria. So, Lea has been a great support to me and the organisation, and incredibly knowledgeable about family businesses.
Tony McManus
Lea, hello, and welcome to 3AW into 5AA for Australia Overnight. How did you become involved?
Lea Boyce
Thanks, Tony. Thanks, Catherine.
We've been involved with FBA as a member for, probably you know, 12, 13 years because we're a family business. We were looking for a peak body where we could share knowledge and stories and learn from other like-minded businesses because when you're in a family business, you do face these unique challenges on an everyday basis, and you think you're alone. But when you start talking to other family businesses, you realise that you're actually not alone. So that was a great thing about FBA, was to sort of bring that community together and I just love being around family businesses, so I have gone boots all and I ended up as Deputy Chair under Angus Kennard, our chair.
Tony McManus
Now, there's a great brand. People think about Kennards, they see those buildings, they see those signs everywhere. But that, of course, is one of the leading great Australian family businesses in the country.
Lea Boyce
Absolutely. I think they're about 75 years maybe, Kennards, and we just actually had an event at their museum last week, which was fantastic. We had over 70 of our members attend that and that speaks to the way that family businesses are prepared to share their stories with other families and invite other family businesses into their world to learn more.
Tony McManus
What about the, Catherine, I'll put it to both of you, the so-called Mum and Dad, by definition, they are also family businesses aren't they?
Catherine Sayer
They certainly are. So really, it's an interesting concept. Most people think family businesses are small businesses but they are small, medium and large. But absolutely Mum and Dad, Mum and daughter, cousins, brothers, multi generations, they're all family businesses and they all have really interesting dynamics.
Tony McManus
Yeah, and so some of them go back there. Well, we know, I think the oldest, and Lea, you would probably know more than I, the fact that one of the oldest family businesses in Australia is WA based, well over 100 years.
Catherine Sayer
Yep, that's right, Settlers is that one.
Tony McManus
Settlers Transport, they've gone into all other things like Plantagenet wines, for example, is now a subsidiary.
Catherine Sayer
Yeah, and in fact, last week, I was in Hobart and at a lunch, and one of the ladies there, who's a farmer, said they are one of the oldest businesses in Australia, family businesses in Australia as well. So, they are dotted around. We're sort of getting to that 6 or 7 generations, not very many of them, but they are to be treasured.
Tony McManus
It's interesting because in the news at the moment, is this the things that they've got to try and navigate from the Murdoch family's point of view?
Now, whilst that's not necessarily by definition a family business, although it is I guess, you'd have to say that it probably is, the issues that they're going through are something that I know, you're smiling wryly, Catherine, that can be a challenge to many family businesses about 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen.
Catherine Sayer
Doesn't matter how much money you've got, a lot of those issues bubble up, and that's why we actually think succession planning, and it's one of the courses that we offer, is so critical. Because often, I hear people think that it's going to take, you know, a few conversations and our succession will be done. We know it's 3, 5, potentially 10 or more years, and it's so much about communication and everyone being on the same page understanding each other and what they want out of everything and so, that's one of those real issues that if you don't have your succession planning in place, you never know what might be around the corner and it's really something you've got to be organised with.
Tony McManus
And what we do know, Lea, is a lot of business have been tripped up that have been in business for a long time, and if it's not planned, it can go pear shape pretty quickly.
Lea Boyce
Absolutely, and I think what you've got to think about with succession planning too, a lot of people think that that's an exit out of the business or it's handing it to the next generation. But there's so many different ways that you can do it, and very often, it's bringing in another family as an investor, which we actually do. A bit of it is co-investing with other families, so that's another way for families to be able to maybe take some capital off the table or sort of change their structure.
So, as Catherine said, it's a really long-term process and it's different for every family, what they want to do moving through the generations, and you very often end up with a business where you don't have a current generation who's still in the business, but you've got a business that is then run by non-family management or you have a liquidity event and exit the business.
Tony McManus
One of the great friends of this program, Shane Healy, who ran this radio station, prior to that, 6PR in Perth, and a great commentator, Shane would often talk about those that work in the business, not always on the business. A very subtle but important distinction.
Lea Boyce
That's a real, just a general family business trap because it's really easy in business, and whether it's a family business or any other business, it's no different to Catherine as CEO of FBA is to you get caught up in the day-to-day working on the business, and it's really hard sometimes to lift your head and work on the business. And because family businesses, they fall into that trap quite easily. So, that's why it's good to promote things like having Family Charters, having family retreats, doing all those types of things, so you're actually getting that opportunity to work on the business and on the family as well, because that's just as important.
Tony McManus
Now, the other thing is, we'll talk about the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen, because they become involved in the association as well by definition?
Catherine Sayer
Yeah, they do. Absolutely, and in fact, this morning, we had a wonderful event at Maton Guitars and.
Tony McManus
See, there's another great brand, Maton Guitars.
Catherine Sayer
What a tour we had. It was so amazing and so again, there's 3, well, there's a son-in-law, there's parents, there's daughter, there's son-in-law, there's some family members not in the business. There's a lot of different moving parts in that literally. But actually doing a tour of the factory and listening to their story, Linda's mum and dad started the business and had gone to the 2nd gen, it's now in 3rd gen, and you know, Tommy Emmanuel buys guitars from Maton.
Tony McManus
Yeah, he does, and why would he not, I mean, and they've been doing for such a long time.
Catherine Sayer
They’re 75 years again this year.
Tony McManus
I know, they were always very desirable, learning guitar all those years ago. At school, you aspired to have a Maton guitar.
Catherine Sayer
Yep, they're pretty amazing. I've seen them being made now.
Tony McManus
We will do this break, I want to take some calls. So, Lea, you came up with a really good topic about what we could ask people that are listening right now, in terms of, I guess, their reason for dealing with family business, and it could be the fish and chip shop or it could be looking to buy a guitar.
Lea Boyce
Hmm, so it’s that idea of would you prefer to buy from a family business than say a corporate business? I guess it's as simple as that. What impacts your buying decision?
Tony McManus
And how do you search them out is the other question.
Everybody should be walking around with a little tag: We are very proud...
Catherine Sayer
Have I got a deal for you.
Lea Boyce
That's why we promote the emblem.
Tony McManus
Well, we'll talk about that in just a moment when we come back. Come and join us, 133693. The text line 0477693693. Catherine Sayers here. Lea Boyce.
Family Business Association, which used to be called Family Business Australia, the reason the A changed is?
Catherine Sayer
Is that we now look after New Zealand as well.
Tony McManus
New Zealand as well.
“My Maton guitar can make it sound akin to a sitar.” Thank you Phantom, “possible mimic a banjo and a bouzouki”, whatever that means, on an axe, Phantom. What are you on about? Feel free to keep the text coming 133693, 0477693693.
We'll talk about the very special day, Catherine, coming up on Thursday, in just a moment.
Give people an indication of some of the names with which they may be familiar, in terms of their day-to-day shopping or decision-making around product.
Catherine Sayer
So, guaranteed the local cafe, restaurant, all those sorts of things that people go to on a regular basis are most likely to be a family business. Then, if you're thinking about some of the household names, again, I have a tendency to talk about food a lot, so Haigh’s Chocolates. Yep, Beerenberg, export all over the world, San Remo, Bickford’s, Coopers, Thomas Foods, there's a whole lot of businesses that you go to the supermarket, and you see them.
Tony McManus
Is it been tough for family business in the current climate? Is that the feedback that you've had?
Lea Boyce
Oh, absolutely. It depends obviously on what industry, how long you've been in business, what you're doing in the current climate. I think a lot of the problem for family business is red tape. There's a lot of government red tape, etc, and I think that we've got University of Adelaide coming up doing a new paper on red tape in family businesses around staffing particularly, is always a good one, and then you've got various legislation. So, there's always the challenges that a family business has to keep up with all of this government red tape and legislation.
Tony McManus
We quite often hear these brands, these lovely brands that we've known for decades and decades, and if something does happen to them, we go, well, what happened? And we're saddened when they disappear.
Lea Boyce
Very often, it happens because we don't support them. Because we don't make the decision to go out and choose who we are supporting, who we're buying from. We've got, for Family Business Association, we have an Australian family-owned business emblem that's on products. You see it on food products, you see it on trucks, you see it on all sorts of things, and so, when people see those types of logos, they should be paying attention and going, well, I might buy from them because I can clearly see they're a family business and then, we're going to have them around for generations if we're supporting them.
Catherine Sayer
One of the thing about family businesses that I observe is they are very long-term players. So, there's lots of hiccups in life, lots of hiccups in business, but they tend to be able to ride out some of those bumps really well. And I think because they have that long term horizon, and they are pretty frugal in the way they run businesses as well, sets them up as well as anyone can be.
Tony McManus
Lea, as Deputy Chair of FBA, there was a great piece on 3AW Brekkie program yesterday morning where they’re talking about the markets, the great markets around Australia where smaller family businesses have been involved in markets but then their rent goes up by 7.5 in their new agreements post-Covid. It can be damage, it can be hurtful, and they've got to manage those little things, like all business people, of course, but it doesn't come, it's not easy. There's always challenges for them.
Lea Boyce
Absolutely, but that's any business, and it's about how do you actually sort of look at processes, policies, good governance to actually sort of safeguard against issues that your business arises. Everybody's costs are going up, groceries are more expensive, everything's more expensive. But for a family business, I think that good planning and good governance and good structures really supports them being able to have that longevity.
Tony McManus
Studio guest, Catherine Sayer is the CEO, Family Business Association, and Ms Boyce, which is just a lovely name. I like saying that Ms Boyce is here. Lea talking about, as the Deputy Chair of FBA. Nice to have you both in the studio. What's happening on Thursday?
Catherine Sayer
Well, Thursday’s our big day of the year, Tony. National Family Business Day, we are celebrating largely through social media, and we are making a massive noise about celebrating family businesses and lots of our members have got on board. We've got 101 Collins Street will be lit up like in our colours of blue and it's really a day of appreciating how many and how significant the family business sector is.
Tony McManus
I'm just looking into text while you were talking. Just lost it now. Where is it? Oh, Leithy, who looks after the night time program at 5AA in Adelaide, says, “Tony, I can guess, you'll be happy to hear another iconic South Australian family business has been reborn after decades out of action. The great brand that is Halls Soft Drinks.
Catherine Sayer
Leith is quite correct about that. That is a recent resurrection and actually, to that point as well, there's a confectionery business in South Australia called Menz Confectionery and the Polly Waffle. They've brought the Polly Waffle back. Now, that was mothballed for quite some time, and they also make the legendary Violet Crumble now. So, it's kind of a little bit interesting how retro we're going in some respects and appreciating the heritage of some of these magnificent brands.
Tony McManus
For people that are listening as we go to air this morning that would like to be more intuitive, if you like, about how they select and work with smaller business, medium, large, whatever family businesses. What's the best way to do that?
Catherine Sayer
Well, I think Lea has pointed out before, look out for the Australian family business emblem but a lot of people tell their stories on their packaging or tell their stories on their website, and they really are loud and proud about being family businesses. So, there's a whole lot of little things that you can pick up that you can recognise an Australian family business.
Tony McManus
There's a great dear friend who would often say, “I employ 65 people in my small family business,” but he said, “I never saw it like that. I always saw it as I'm actually looking after 65 very important families.”
Lea Boyce
Absolutely. When you are a family business employing people, you don't see the mass, that one individual. You see the mass, their family, because they're then going home and providing for their family. They're putting their kids through school. They're putting food on the table so you have a real responsibility to all of your employers, and they do become like family. I know, I hear a lot of people go oh, I hate that saying about they're like family. You're employers. But it's true. Because you do treat people with the care and respect that they deserve when they're in a family business.
Tony McManus
There's something I don't, I'm curious to see these people say I hate that expression. But there's something actually joyful of being in the presence of dealing with someone who may have been in your suburb or somebody who's been in your city that you've grown up knowing, even if you don't know them, you feel like you may know them.
Lea Boyce
Absolutely. I think that it's just that idea of community and culture.
Tony McManus
It's almost a bit of safety around it too, I reckon.
Lea Boyce
Yeah, it's the community. It's community, it's culture, it's sort of bringing people together and it's, I think a huge thing about family business is storytelling. Like Catherine said, when you're looking at some products, we all Google them and you can really see online those people who are family businesses because they do love to tell their story. So, that's actually a really easy way to find great family businesses is simply reading through their website and they'll talk about it because they're proud of it.
Tony McManus
Yeah, and you've been very gracious over this past 12 months in arranging a whole lot of people to be either on the phone or occasionally in the studios with us, Catherine, whether you're talking about, the one that I was really taken because I love watches as you know, the Adina brand. Now, it's probably not a brand that you're going to go and see everywhere but what a lovely little family-owned operation. Well it’s not little. They're doing it. They're doing amazing things now, globally. And it's worthwhile looking at those and the value they provide and other businesses well worth our considering.
Catherine Sayer
Yeah, and not only the value, but the service. If you've ever met Grant from Adina, he'll be your new best friend. He is so warm, friendly, engaging, and cares passionately about great products for great people.
Tony McManus
What are you doing about strengthening that membership base?
Catherine Sayer
Oh, we're going for it. We are going for it. We really...
Yeah, look, part of what we need to do is make sure we elevate the awareness of family businesses across Australia and New Zealand and talking to people like you, Tony, you're getting that message out. We've got lots of people that are starting to rise the tide by getting that message out about how important family businesses are. 70% of Australian businesses are family businesses and 50% of our workforce...
Tony McManus
70% of businesses?
Catherine Sayer
Yep, and 50% of our workforce in Australia are employed by family businesses. Now, they're 2 stats that if you think about that for half a second, that's really significant. So, we need to be loud and proud and really promote family businesses. Our members need to promote themselves and we're sort of going to be a force to be reckoned with some time in the future.
Tony McManus
What's the challenges? Just before we let you both go, what's the challenge when you see one of these great members that might have been there 40, 50, 60, 70, over 100 years, who then for whatever reason, make the decision that they're going to sell their business to one of the majors. I mean, it's inevitable and it does happen. They've got to make those decisions for themselves.
Catherine Sayer
And they do. It is a very personal decision, and on a slightly different topic, I had a conversation with one of our members this morning who really, her and her husband would desperately love their kids to go into the business.
Tony McManus
But they're not always the case.
Catherine Sayer
They're either not interested or they might not even be capable or whatever. So, there's multitude of reasons why people actually do sell their family business, and it could be all sorts of health reasons or other things that happen. And it's not a failure. It's just a change, and as Lea said, they're a family business investing in other family businesses, so you never know, that next business may not be a major, it might be another family business that wants to invest in that particular business.
Tony McManus
Growing up in Melbourne, I was always acutely aware of even the local person who ran the fruit shop in the day in Ashburton, for example, I can remember them as the Canali family and they were just one of it. I just thought I was so envious of the culture that they had between Grandma, Grandpa, Mum, Dad and the kids at school, and they would go and pack the apples and pack the fruit on the shelves, morning, noon and night. There was something gorgeous about that I reckon.
Lea Boyce
There's something super special about family business. It's really often too for the rising generation, it's that learning by osmosis. It's the conversations around the table, and I think you learn a good work ethic and you're sharing stories, you're sharing knowledge, and I think it's pretty spectacular being a part of a family business.
Tony McManus
Thursday again for those who want to find out more, Catherine?
Catherine Sayer
Yep, have a look on our website or follow us on social media FBA or familybusinessassociation.org.au. There's lots of things to read about with family businesses, and we're really looking forward to celebrating the day and raising the profile of family businesses.
Tony McManus
Thank you both for coming and it's a long day.
Catherine Sayer
Very excited to be here, Tony.
Lea Boyce
Yeah, we're just too excited to be here with you.
Tony McManus
But I thank you both for coming and it's lovely. Nice to see you, Catherine.
Catherine Sayer
Yeah, thanks Tony.
